I dedicate this story to the loving memory of Robert Bruce Young Jr., former Director, Greenpeace – Ann Arbor. I am predestined to work for him, for God wanted to prepare my mind to begin a spiritual journey depending upon hope and comfort to find Divine Mercy, Grace, and Compassion as the basis for the man’s existence at any given place and time, under any kind of circumstances.
Historically the phrase “In God We Trust” started appearing on coins minted in United States since the times of American Civil War. Legislation to provide “In God We Trust” as the national motto was approved on July 11, 1955. The Act of Congress in 1956 is codified as Federal Law in the U.S. Code at 36 U.S.C. 302 and it mandates appearance of “In God We Trust” phrase on all coins and paper currency of the United States of America.
MY JOURNEY TO SULTANATE OF OMAN:
During 1983, I was serving in the Indian Army, and I was stationed at Army Ordnance Corps Centre, Secunderabad. I made decision to relinquish my Permanent Regular Commission in the Indian Army Medical Corps and to depart from India. I started making my preparations and had considered several countries as my destination. I had tried to seek employment in countries like Iran, Iraq, and Kuwait. The Ministry of Defence in Sultanate of Oman employs a large number of military personnel of Great Britain, Pakistan, India, Egypt, Jordan, and others. The Indian Army Medical Corps Officers are also sent there on deputation . Prior to 1983, I applied for deployment in Oman but was not selected. It was not easy to get my application for resignation from Army Service approved as my request was opposed by Lieutenant General V V S Pratap Rao, the Director General of Armed Forces Medical Services (DGAFMS). General V V S Pratap Rao made the decision to send me on a posting to Mizoram in Northeast India. It was a hateful and vindictive decision made by him to hurt me. I was unwilling to obey an order which failed to acknowledge the interests of Service. I had no option and had to prepare myself to move in a different direction to oppose his decision to dispatch me to Mizo Hills. In the Indian Army Service, decisions such as transfer orders (or posting orders) to move Medical Officers are made by the Director of Medical Services (Army). General Rao violated this Rule of Conduct. I contacted Shri. Pendekanti. Venkata Subbaiah, Union Minister of State for Home and Parliamentary Affairs (1980-84) to get help to change my posting order. The Minister directly spoke to General Rao. The Minister could do so because General Rao had contacted him seeking his help. General Rao was making his plans to work after retirement from the Indian Army Service. He found the job of a radiologist at Ministry of Health, Sultanate of Oman. Shri. Pendekanti Venkata Subbaiah, the Home Minister, was required to give a written consent to approve General Rao’s application seeking the Government of India’s permission to travel to Sultanate of Oman. General Rao agreed to the Minister’s demand to change my posting order and got his application for permission to leave India approved. General Rao asked Lieutenant General Banerjee, the Director of Medical Services (DMS/Army) to issue me a new posting order to serve at a different Unit but insisted that I should only be dispatched to any Unit which is based in Mizoram. To oppose my transfer to Mizoram, I too chose Oman as my travel destination. I could make that choice as Providence cleared all obstacles to relinquish my Permanent Regular Commission which has contractual obligations. I left India immediately after my resignation from Service was approved on January 10, 1984. By the time I had signed my new job contract on January 14, 1984 at Ministry of Defence, Muscat, Oman, General Rao had already reached Muscat. A friend of mine wanted to meet with General Rao and I accompanied him on that trip. My friend got out of the car to meet General Rao as he stepped out of his residence in Muscat. I stayed back in the car. I had simply wanted General Rao to find me in Oman and know that I did not move to Mizoram as expected by him.
A JOURNEY TO THE UNITED STATES:
While I was stationed at Khasab, near Strait of Hormuz, I had faced a problem about my daughter’s education. My daughter who was studying in Muscat English Speaking School reached 6th grade had no further opportunities for higher education in English. When we reached Oman from India, she had initially joined the School for Indian children in Muscat and we were not satisfied with the quality of education at that school and as a consequence she had joined Muscat English Speaking School. I had no desire to return to India and I was not able to send her to a Boarding School in England or Europe at that young age. Myself and my wife, who was working as Medical Officer(Doctor) at Al-Munther Clinic in Wadi Adai, Muscat, had job contracts to live in Oman but we were not immigrants. The only choice we could make was to leave Oman and find a new destination which would provide opportunities for my daughter’s uninterrupted higher education in English. My son was in first grade and his education did not pose any immediate problem or concern. We had considered Australia, England, and the United States. I had also checked about United Arab Emirates, Iran and Iraq to explore the opportunities of employment and long time residence to help my children’s education. As I was stationed at Khasab, I could travel to United Arab Emirates in my military Land Rover without the need for a visa or a travel document. I found there were no opportunities to immigrate to that country. I went to Iranian, and Iraqi Embassies in Muscat and was very warmly received by them. These Embassies had no powers to help me with immigration to their countries. In Oman, there were several British Expatriates. My Commanding Officer, Lieutenant Colonel WWG Hardy, a British citizen and others had owned houses in England and were willing to help me with my housing requirements if I were to decide to move to England. At that very critical moment as I was planning to choose a destination for my journey in life, it could be a mere coincidence and I read a story published in The Oman Daily Observer, the only English language news paper published by Oman. The story described the official motto of United States as “In God We Trust”. The story caught my immediate attention. Earlier at Khasab, I had written an essay describing the Role of Islam in Medical Care and had also written a paper exploring the connection between Spirituality and Health Care. The term ‘Health’ is defined as the physical, mental, and social well-being of an individual in his environment and community. I wanted to redefine the term ‘Health’ as the physical, mental, social, moral and spiritual well-being of an individual in his environment and community. The well-being of man depends upon Power/Force/Energy of Mercy, Compassion, and Grace which operates or regulates access to extraterrestrial source of Cosmic Energy.
MY INTERVIEW WITH IMMIGRATION OFFICER, EMBASSY OF UNITED STATES, MUSCAT, OMAN:
I went to the Embassy of United States in Muscat in my military uniform. The Force Medical Services of Royal Oman Army provides free medical services to all citizens of the United States living in Oman. While I worked at the Force Base Hospital in Muscat, I used to often treat American teachers and American personnel employed by PAN AM Airlines Company based at the Seeb International Airport in Muscat. The Embassy officials had also immediately recognized that I was stationed at Khasab base at the Strait of Hormuz from the badges of regimental affiliation worn on my military uniform. I directly told the Embassy Staff that I needed help to immigrate to the United States. The Embassy provided plenty of information about places in the United States and life in the United States. I had an interview with a young Immigration Officer serving at the Embassy. I told him that I am very impressed by the official motto of United States which proudly proclaims Trust in God. I narrated to him my story and about my service in Indian Army and my journey to Oman to uplift myself and my family from a social environment that caused anxiety and stress. I had shown him my essay and my plans to protect Public Health by promoting Spiritual well-being of people. He was very impressed by my presentation. He had very cheerfully agreed to help me with my journey to the United States. I left my lucrative job contract with the Ministry of Defence, Sultanate of Oman for I trust God and I have no concern for prematurely ending my adventurous military career at a very young age of 38 years. I had already faced every kind of risk to my personal life while serving in military uniform and yet I have no scars to display on my body. I never experienced any fear about my personal well-being.
DOCTOR GOES BEYOND TRADITIONAL MEDICINE:
After I arrived in Ann Arbor, Michigan, my daughter joined Slauson Middle School. The School did an academic evaluation and admitted her to 8th Grade. She was allowed to skip 7th Grade altogether. It reflects upon the high quality of education given at Muscat English Speaking School. My son joined Haisley Elementary School. I sent the same essay, which I had earlier presented at the United States Embassy in Muscat, to The Ann Arbor News. The Editor was also equally impressed with my ideas and arranged for an interview to publish a story. The Ann Arbor News published a story titled ‘Doctor goes beyond Traditional Medicine’ in its Saturday’s edition dated January 17, 1987. Quoting from my essay, the Ann Arbor News story has said,”This type of faith is acquired step by step through love, meditation, and contemplation. One who attains this faith has a spiritual insight about life, able to appreciate the greatness and splendor of the creation all around us. This faith is a vital force for leading a healthy and spiritually rich life and works as a strong preventive weapon against illness. Disease Prevention is more than mere Health Education. It requires a philosophical approach based on spiritual values. Modern Medical Science alone cannot solve the problems facing humanity.” My son informed me that his Class Teacher shared this News Story with the Class. We still live in Ann Arbor keeping our Trust in God who still protects us and keeps our spirits alive. God ensures that I live in Peace, Harmony, and Tranquility while keeping me as a Prisoner who has no choice about the circumstances of his Time, and Place. To gain the subjective experience called human Freedom, I may have no choice other than finding a place in the World that would show respect, and concern for my desire for Individual Freedom. But, the question that I face is that of God’s Choice. For God has condemned me to live in the United States as a prisoner with no power of action and confined by the circumstances of time, and place, I do not expect the Leader of the Free World to deliver me the experience of Freedom or Liberty.
Wonderful life story and beautiful essay in deed –
Dear Dr. Kesava Krishna garu,
Thanks for your kind response. I still need to do a lot to promote the understanding of the term “Health”. I would define ‘health’ as physical, mental. social, and spiritual wellbeing of man in his environment and community. Human existence depends on all of these components. Humans naturally seek peace and happiness and existence has no relevance without Peace. The awareness or Consciousness of Truth brings Bliss and Indian thinkers have defined God as SAT+CHIT+ANANDA.
…keeping our Trust in God who still protects us and keeps our spirits alive…
Do you have any proof that there is something called God?
Please remember personal anecdotes and experiences are not proof for others. You are a doctor, you already know what is proof so I need not elaborate.
You have the freedom to believe in santa clause or mermaids or allah or any other stuff. But the bottom line is, God who is omnipotent and ever present and has been around for billions of years (??)… forever… has meticulously made sure that there is no proper proof of his existence. So you need ‘trust’ or ‘faith’ to believe in him. As simple ordinary proof would be too much to expect!!
How naive humanlind is!
Wake up there is NO gOD!
Dreams are nice but one must face reality. As that is what sanity is about.
“I THINK, THEREFORE I AM”:
I thank you for your kind remarks and for challenging me to provide proof. I really like it. All concepts must be challenged and tested by exposing the thoughts to a sceptic hypothesis. I appreciate you for asking for proof. I must remind you that your view that “There is no God” should be subjected to a sceptic hypothesis. Your statement could also be challenged and should be supported by proof and scientific evidence. I would like to know the proof, the scientific evidence in support of your statement about an entity popularly identified as ‘God’. You need to offer a rational argument to substantiate your thought. Kindly view some of my thoughts in support of The Theory of Creation. Please review my concerns about The Battle for Survival. Kindly examine my views about the Fundamental Forces that operate interactions between Matter and Energy. Kindly examine the physiological basis for human existence. How does man exist in Nature? What is Health? What are the challenges that we face to keep man alive?What is Reality? How do you define Reality? Do you know what Time is it now? Do you know as to where exactly you exist? The mind exists in three different states; it is alert and fully awake, it is active but dreaming, it is resting and sleeping. Man’s existence depends upon all these mental states. You cannot remain alert and fully awake at all times. Man needs rest and sleep and man’s biological existence is synchronized with an external event in the physical environment. The alternating periods of light(Day) and darkness(night) are fundamental to existence of all living entities and they run their lives, the life supporting biological and physiological functions by a natural Rhythm described as Diurnal, Solar, or Circadian Rhythm. Tell me if you could avoid dreaming while you are resting?Tell me, if you can directly govern the activities of a single cell in your body? Do you rule or govern your body and your existence? Earth’s surface is covered with plenty of water and yet the water for our existence is delivered from the sky. Whose energy lifts the water from earth’s surface to the sky? Who had established this relationship between earth and sun and the living entities? Why there is no water on Venus? Why does it spin the way it spins?What is the name of the physical force that imparted this spin?
But the burden of proof is on those who say that there is a God. It is a positive assertion!
You have so many questions. For example, ‘Why there is no water on Venus? Why does it spin the way it spins? I do not think it is reasonable to assume that God did it.
Sir, you said, “The alternating periods of light(Day) and darkness(night) are fundamental to existence of all living entities and they run their lives,…”
Thats not a fact. The creatures deep into the ocean and caves are not …
You asked: Do you know as to where exactly you exist? yes and maybe no. Do you? Where?
You stated: The mind exists in three different states; it is alert and fully awake, it is active but dreaming, it is resting and sleeping. Man’s existence depends upon all these mental states. You cannot remain alert and fully awake at all times.
The debate between theory of creation Vs Evolution is a hot one. I for one find only one of them rational and logical. The Richard Dawkin vareity.
I accept there is no proof of God’s non existence. I wonder if you will be honest enough to admit that there is no proof of God’s existence as well. Ofcourse many people would like to modify the meaning of the word ‘proof’ to the extent it looses its meaning. Just so that one could say there is proof of Gods existence.
So the issue is, Can someone please show a simple proof of Gods existence? A proof that is not unverifiable and does not need ‘faith’ cause that cannot be called proof.
Second, I think this polarity is borne out of the belief in theory of evolution or the lack of it. If someone is convinced with evolution, there is no room left for god.
For those who are convinced that THE theory of evolution of life is a fact, there can be no God.
So my piece is please read Richard Dawkin’s The greatest Show on Earth or Jerry Coyne’s Why Evolution is true.
And sir, if you have already read them and still do not agree that evoltion happened ‘by itself’ as naturally as a rock gets warm by the Suns rays…or the ocean tides… in a predictable, natural way without invoking the supernatural God. I really don’t believe I can offer any new arguments.
Dear Ethis Talvays,
Thanks for your kind reply. As the saying goes, “The Proof of Pudding is in Eating”. The Proof of God’s existence is in Eating what you eat every day during your existence on planet Earth. Humans are energy dependent like all other living entities. A rock that is exposed to solar radiation gains heat but it cannot manufacture its own substance exploiting the energy provided by Sun. A living entity exists in a state of consciousness, or awareness, and seeks connection with a source of energy. Over 90 percent of living entities display diurnal rhythm. There are other natural rhythms and cycles like the Lunar Rhythm. The creatures living in deep ocean also display consciousness and exist by establishing a connection to a source of energy. They are not energy independent entities. A rock is not energy dependent and does not display consciousness. Plants manufacture sugars and each does so in its own unique way. There are so many citrus varieties. I can identify each by simply tasting the fruit. Apart from sugars, we need proteins. I can identify them with the sensation of taste they impart. Brain has two functional abilities. It is intuitive and rational.Man acquires knowledge from sensory experience, and rational evaluation of previously acquired experience. I recognize primary colors like red, green, and blue as I am born with organs of color perception. I hear sounds because I had arrived with organs of hearing. I can taste a substance, as the taste buds already exist. I can touch an object and recognize it as I have organs of tactile perception. I recognize the existence of God by simply using my organs of sense.1. Visual- The Sky is Blue. The sky is blue only where I live in this universe. In the rest of the universe, the sky is dark even if there are numerous bright objects. I recognize the blue color, because I am not color blind. Dogs which have no receptors for blue color have no awareness about the color of the sky. If blue sky exists in rest of the universe, I need to verify the fact. 2. Auditory- I live in a world full of sounds. These are not mere mechanical sounds. The living entities have come into existence with the ability to generate sounds and also hear them and recognize. This aspect of Sound Energy does not exist in rest of the universe.3.Gustatory- The original taste of water. This substance with its original taste in its liquid form exists only upon Earth. If ice exists upon Moon, it does not impart the original, pure taste that liquid water imparts upon Earth. Fresh Water on which I depend for my existence, reaches earth’s land surface from the sky. I need proof that liquid water with its original taste exists in rest of the universe.4.Olfactory- Earth has an original fragrance of its own described as Geosmin. This fragrance exists only in the soil of Earth. In the rest of the universe, the soil has no fragrance of its own. We had obtained Lunar rocks and soil samples and it does not have the biotic factors to generate aromatic chemical compounds that provide this olfactory sensation. The world is full of fragrances. Smell Roses to appreciate the fragrant world in which we exist. I need proof of fragrant sample from rest of the universe.5. Tactile- I can touch and hold my baby in my arms and recognize that the baby is mine and the baby also recognizes me as the parent. The object that I perceive has the power of perception of its own. I need an object from rest of the universe which has the power of tactile perception. These are the five basic sensory perceptions that help me to know the world in which I exist. I need proof to verify that these sensory perceptions also exist in rest of the universe. A day on Venus is the equivalent of 235 earth days. Venus is our next door planetary neighbor. Earth is a created object as it is original, unique, and one of its own kind among billions of celestial objects. I am created because I exist with an unique genome of my own. My genome has never existed in the past and would not exist in the future. I will give you a free blood sample if you would like to duplicate my genome. There are trillions of life forms and each is an individual. Each is a created entity as there is no duplicate. I am a rational person who has scientific evidence for God as demonstrated by the world that is created. I need scientific proof that God does not exist. I need to see and verify an object that may not have been created.
You have stated such a lot of facts. None of them are helpful to show that God exists.
In the end you have stated: “I am a rational person who has scientific evidence for God as demonstrated by the world that is created.” Huh?
But you have not offered any bit of evidence at all!!! The evidence is what I am dying to hear.
Then you have said, “I need scientific proof that God does not exist…” (Is that an admission that there is no proof of his existence too, cause if you had proof of his existence, theres no point asking for any proof of his non existence. The issue can be considered as settled).
I have already said I have no proof that God doesn’t exist. I still feel the burden of proof is on those who assert that there is some God. And not on those who say that there isn’t.
I like the polite tone of your conversation. You make a good argument. I am pleased to note that you have no evidence or support to claim that God does not exist. Material Sciences, most importantly Physics investigates Matter and Energy. We understand the macro universe and the micro universe. We understand the Four Fundamental Forces and the Four Fundamental Interactions. In Quantum Physics, mass is described as the energy content of a particle. By extension, the material universe is the manifestation of its total energy content. What are we missing here? We have not defined the properties of Space. Universe is not simply matter and energy. It is about Space which permits matter and energy interactions. Indian thinkers tend to explore Space or Emptiness which is described in Sanskrit language as ‘SUNYATA’. I cannot understand ‘Sunyata’ by scientific inquiry. Kindly let me know if you could investigate the nature of ‘Space’ by conducting scientific experiments. The Ultimate Reality, the Prime Cause, the Absolute Truth belongs to the realm of Sunyata or Emptiness. Without creating Space, you cannot explain material universe. Without emptiness, the mass/energy interactions cannot take place. I recognize the existence of God when I keep my mind EMPTY, empty of all thoughts, all desires, all passions, all emotions, and all attachments.
I perfectly understand that you believe and recognise God. Most people believe in God. I know that.
I am merely asking for proof in a totally conventional way. Verifiable proof which does not need faith or belief as a pre condition.
I have to point out that you have not answered my questions straight on but instead you have once again resorted to stating a mix of a lot of general statements. Some of the statements are decidedly vague in their meaning..( We understand the macro universe and the micro universe… It is about Space which permits matter and energy interactions.) What exactly is meant by permission here.. is space actively doing something? I guess you are saying that space (minus mass and energy) means ‘nothing’. I agree scientific enquiry of ‘nothing’ is rather limited… guess it can’t be done.
But ‘God’, why is he not open to scientific enquiry?
Unless … it is nothing too. There is scope of converging our views here.
What I ask is, is there anyone who can offer proof of God’s existence? A one word yes or no answer will be helpful here.
And I did not have any hesitation to say that I have NO proof that God does not exist.
Everyone is entitled to believe and have faith in whatever they please. But to call such faith scientific … Well that is another thing. That would not need some sort of verifiable evidence.
Which doesn’t happen to be available … for skeptics and believers alike.
On the other hand it seems to me that the progress of our earth is happening in such a predictable/natural way. A lot of evidence has been found to show how our earth was formed. (refer school text books) The evidence also points out the eventual death of our star (Sun) and utter destruction of earth … eventually.
New evidence is constantly coming up.
So far, it seems that the earth, like other planets was formed from the gaseous clouds… without any divine intervention… astounding things in our world are happening but they apparently are a cumulative result of simple natural phenomenon. Seeing it step by step, it loses the need to be explained through divine intervention.
Another wonder is ‘life’. Ever since the theory of evolution is around. Divine explanations are in serious trouble. It is an ‘either-or’ situation.
Either you agree with the theory of evolution or you agree that God created life. No wonder, creationists have a serious problem with the theory of evolution.
Because… (Holy s..!) It shows that life has very slowly originated from simple replicating chemicals into such complex forms simply by natural selection. But it took 3+ billion years for this to happen. This is extremely hard to swallow. How can complex life evolve by itself. It does require some explaining. Fortunately very nice videos, books exist. I can help in this area.
No morals, no divine stuff, no higher purpose, nothing but just slow simple natural selection of replicating chemicals.
Can you accept that? Of course I already know that you cannot. This will be completely unacceptable to you.
Therein lies the source of our deep disagreement. It ultimately boils down to this only.
Can you accept that humans are just another life form like zillions of other species. Have evolved into their present forms by this ruthless, cruel, purposeless (I know for sure you wont agree to this) evolution … just cruel heartless natural selection.
Repeating a few things from primary school books… This is what almost all of the scientist agree (only because of hard evidence otherwise you can’t expect these scientists to agree to anything. They are horribly sceptical and do not like to agree to others’ ideas).
“If the entire course of evolution were compressed into a single year, the earliest bacteria would appear at the end of March, but we wouldn’t see the first human ancestors until 6 a.m. on December 31. The age of Greece, about 500 bc, would occur just thirty seconds before midnight.
Can you see the insignificance of human beings?
There is evidence that once these animals existed:-
1. Tyrannosaurus Rex (extinct 65 million years ago)
2. Sabre tooth tiger extinct 10000 years ago
3. Aurochs: a very large type of cattle (extinct since 1627)
4. Quagga: half zebra, half horse (extinct since 1883)
5. Thylacine: the Tasmanian Tiger (extinct since 1936)
Hundreds of branches of species of apelike animals also existed but are now extinct. They reached dead ends.
So is it very unreasonable to say that humans too are just another species that were not there yesterday and eventually will become completely extinct? Dead end! Gone!
What species exist today, are a very tiny subset of the total no of species that existed.
The earth is also certain to get destroyed along with all life.
The extermination of species is completely ruthless and without mercy. They die as the ants that are unwittingly crushed under our feet or ruthlessly killed like the germs that are killed by antiseptics.
Sadly, God never comes to their rescue. Even when you kill the germs as a Doctor 🙂 In fact it is worse than that. God is nowhere in the picture in this entire story. Things seem to be happening by themselves… naturally.
Ofcourse the believers are stubborn in their belief that all this is ultimately Gods design.
It is such a false and ridiculous belief. It is as ridiculous as predicting the result of a lottery after seeing the results. Can you call that a prediction?
I guess the purposelessness of their life is a little disturbing to most people. So they wont accept it.
You have made a statement, “This faith is a vital force for leading a healthy and spiritually rich life and works as a strong preventive weapon against illness.”
Over last hundred years modern medicines have increased life expectancy so dramatically. Or do you mean that it is because of sudden increase in faith in humans after millions of years.
Personally, these medicines have helped me a lot at times. Saved my life too. And I have no ‘faith’!
Hundreds of medicines are tested all the time by FDA and licensed to be sold only after statistically they are found to have benefits outweighing harmful effects. Millions of Dollars are being spent on such tests. (Which are verifiable). (This matches with my understanding of the word ‘scientific’.)
Can you show me a single just a single documented verifiable test where let us say we can see a particular antibiotic is found to be greater than 5% more beneficial to subjects who have faith?
(Double blind test is a must to prevent bias and effects of placebo effect on subjects and those conducting tests. Sorry, no concession possible on good faith. After all the same exacting standards are demanded from all regular medicines.)
This test can so easily be conducted.
Or may I ask if lack of faith is given as a contraindication in any medicines label? Can you send me scanned copy?
What is the degree to which faith has this beneficial effect? Are any statistics mentioned in any of your Medical Degree Academic Books? Since this is a very important statistic, can you send me a scan please?
Statistical figures are so commonly available in the field of medicines. About the effects of the medicines, vaccines etc. I would love to see the figures on faith. FDA stamp would be nice. I respect FDA. But I will accept anything really. (Sorry not from Ramdevs laboratory. Sellers are not allowed to prove their own medicines in their own closed labs. Neither Glaxo nor Ramdev can do that).
That is the kind of hard proof I expect for such a powerful agent called God. Nothing less.
Yes there are dime a dozen people available quoting all sorts of ridiculous personal experiences. Just put on the TV. The Christian TV channels etc and you see claims of the blind able to see and lame walking. Well what can I say…
I am sure you will not be interested in money. But several open challenges to prove anything supernatural with huge monetary rewards are getting away unchallenged. Your claims do fall into the category of supernatural. Maybe you can win the money and offer it to some charity. That will be nice. I can provide all necessary information about the organisations offering the money.
I ask once again. Do you have proof? Then I am interested.
If not, well, to be honest all this conversation may be interesting but totally futile.
My conversation is not aimed at changing your opinion. You should always keep the freedom to think for yourself. I am exchanging my views with others to test my own views. I like when people like you challenge my views. It helps me to think better and also helps me to communicate better. It is not futile as I am not in the business of converting people. I am not an Evangelist preaching Gospel and winning souls in the name of God. The Ann Arbor News had reviewed my essay and in thier story the Editor quoted a few of my lines. I was speaking about a patient’s faith in the medical practioner and a God of his own choice. The medical practioner and the patient need not share any religious faith. If you have to visit a doctor for any reason, your faith and trust in your care provider helps you to heal better, faster, and recover better. Battle injuries and wounds heal better, and faster by the mere physical presence of a medical care provider. The powerful psychological effects of stress are relieved when a care provider touches and speaks to the wounded person. When stress is relieved, man recovers from blood loss and wounds tend to heal better. There is plenty of research done about Stress and its impact upon surgical wounds, and the process of Repair and Inflammation. The faith in medical practioner can reduce the amount of pain medication that is needed. Every medicine including antibiotics have a true placebo effect. When you have faith and trust in your practioner, the medicine works better. If you trust the efficacy of the medicine administered, it works better. If you are doubtful about your medicine’s benefits, your doctor’s abilities, and the usefulness of the medical or surgical intervention, you would recover slowly, and the intervention would be less successful. Kindly review some of my other posts where I have described the natural healing process of Wound Repair and Inflammation as a Divine Gift. What you describe as “NATURAL”, there could be reasons to interpret it as Divine. I agree with you that Earth has experienced several Extinctions and some species have survived these extinctions. Sharks, turtles, crocodiles, and several insects like cockroaches have been around for a long time without evolutionary change.Kindly explore the field of Immunology. You need to know as to how we defend our existence, the molecular basis of immune mechanisms. We deploy unique protein molecules to defend our physical integrity as organisms. We do not display any evolutionary connection. Chimpanzees and humans share almost identical genomes and manufacture similar proteins and yet maintain and defend their Molecular Individualism. Our identity is defined at Molecular Level by unique polymers that we create. About thirty or forty years ago, I had shared some of your belief and faith in Evolution. There is no research paper that has documented the transformation of one species into a different species. Creation is not a past event. Creation is self evident and is a present event that can be directly observed and studied.Staphylococcus can acquire drug resistance by changing a substantial part of its genome and yet cannot evolve into a new or different species. The round shaped coccus will not change into a rod shaped bacillus. I agree that Homo sapiens sapiens had arrived on this planet in recent times, about 35,000 years ago. Man as we know today has not existed on this planet for millions of years. There is no proof. I had discussed the subject of Human Chromosome #2 with people who teach Evolutionary Biology and are currently working in that field teaching graduate courses. The suggestion of Human Chromosome#2 as an evolutionary link causes more problems to the Theory of Evolution and cannot resolve the problems. The phrase ‘natural selection’ is absurd. What is Nature? Who makes the Selection in Nature? You speak about a random process and yet the same time use the word Selection. The random process cannot explain a perfect Human Chromosome #2. I appreciate the progress made by Science in the last few decades. There is no chance that man could discover life on some other planet. There is no chance that man can improve his ability to discover an Earth like planet. There are biological, and physical limitations to man’s abilities to explore cosmos. You have not considered the Force of Illusion which alters human perception. What we think to be real could be unreal. What could be unreal may actually be Real. You have not considered the Force of Mercy, Grace, and Compassion which I have described as “KRUPA” a Sanskrit word. Human Existence is simply impossible without synchronization of our existence with Cosmic Power. I appreciate the Theory of Orbital Chaos. Scientists have given their mathematical calculations for orbital chaos. Until such time, life on planet Earth could exist because of the Force of Krupa. The cycles of Creation, Dissolution, and Regeneration may continue. My faith does not belong to the realm of revealed Scriptures. My faith pertains to Scientific knowledge about physical universe in which we exist and the understanding of man in health and in disease.
Without emptiness, the mass/energy interactions cannot take place…
Technically thats not quite correct…
Anyway it does not matter.
Kindly refer to the concept of Black Hole which has intense gravitational field from which neither light nor matter can escape. Matter can be compressed as there is space between atoms that form molecules and also within the structure of atom. Gravitational Force is the weakest of all fundamental forces. It is weaker than electromagnetic force. In a Black Hole where matter is compressed, space is eliminated, the characteristics change. We need space to build atoms and to compose molecules. When the space is eliminated, the physical and chemical properties of all elements change and they no longer exist as those elements.
Again there these are general facts mixed with non specific interpretation.
Okay when matter collapses into a black hole the physical and chemical properties change.
So how is this relevant to the question about proof of Gods existence?
It is relevant to the understanding of the physical universe. It is relevant to the Concept of Creation. We need to understand the true nature of Matter, Energy, and Space. The Creation of Space is as relevant as the gas clouds coming together to form Stars. In the present universe, new stars are getting born, some stars are dying, some are exploding into spectacular supernovas, some are already dead and described as dwarfs.Our ability to explore Cosmos is practically inhibited by the limitations imposed by Space.If nothingness or emptiness is such a huge obstacle to scientific discovery, how would you discover God who has created Space?
You have confirmed that you do not agree with the theory of evolution. You do not agree that man has evolved from other ape like species.
Which really simplifies things. Its all about this evolution thing. The either or situation,
I once again recommend the two books mentioned by me earlier which explain why evolution is a fact.
I agree on one point, that the faith’s healing effect is nothing but placebo effect. It may be considered as helpful in a way.
But poor medecine manufacturers are not permitted to sell for this benefit alone. They have to prove some benefit beyond placebo effect. Maybe they should also be allowed to be exempt from proving beyond placebo effect. That would be fair.
you said – What we think to be real could be unreal. What could be unreal may actually be Real. You have not considered the Force of Mercy, Grace, and Compassion…
The word nut can have different meanings depending on the context – eatable nut, bolt, crazy guy etc.
Similarly, what do you mean by force of mercy. It isn’t the same force thich when applied can move a physical object in a measurable way depending on the mass of the object.
I studied Plant Taxonomy and Animal Classification. I subscribe to Linnean binomial classification. I appreciate the value of Ecology. I have also studied Plant Physiology and Zoology. The Theory of Evolution proposes that random mutations lead to changes in a species and eventually lead to its descent as a new species. I agree with Charles Darwin and admit that Things in Nature Change with Time. There is a time for everything. It speaks of the influence of Time and its power. Time has existed before man has arrived on this planet Earth.
Please find time to visit your local Hospital and understand the problems of Human Existence, and the Battle for Survival. You need to understand the role of medical care provider, medicine and the role of Providence.
Krupa, Mercy, Grace, and Compassion is a measurable Force if you would infer the data from studies of Gravitational Force and the probabilities of Orbital Collision. But this Force when applied to living entities, it imparts an uplifting feeling which can be directly and personally experienced. Kindly take time to treat a person with kindness and compassion and experience it yourself. It causes a psychological change. It changes attitude, and behavior. It changes your direction and purpose in life. If you have not personally witnessed or experienced a human act of Compassion, your life would be incomplete. If you show Compassion, you would very easily understand the Force of Divine Compassion that sustains life on this planet.
You said – The suggestion of Human Chromosome#2 as an evolutionary link causes more problems to the Theory of Evolution and cannot resolve the problems.
Thats one desperate creationist view. The creationinsts have been coming up with such stuff time and again due their great reluctance to accept that humans have evolved from ape like animals, only to be debunked time and again.
Please look up Chromosome No 2 in wikipedia or any other mainstream science knowlege base which explains (doesn’t expect faith) why Chromosome 2 presents very strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes.
Kindly find time to directly speak to an Evolutionary Biologist and find out the reasons for this dispute. I studied Evolutionary Biology and also Medical Genetics. Mutations are different. Changes in chromosomal numbers are a different kind of aberration known as Aneuploidy. When did this fusion event take place? In which species it has taken place? We still have several primates. You may like to fuse two entire chromosomes and create a new ,single chromosome like human chromosome#2. I need experimental evidence and a simple demonstration that you could produce a viable mutant with a fused chromosome.
I don’t know how anyone can put human beings in the same class as animals. Animals don’t know the difference between right and wrong. Animals don’t think. I would like an explanation as to where did all this intelligence come from that we have? I can go on and on asking questions. What you are asking is to produce God. It can’t be done. You can’t put a limit on God. What you are asking is for someone to do something like capture God and put Him in a jar to show you that He exists. God is omnipresent, He’s everywhere and He’s in His creation. Everything that is and yet to be created needs a designer.
Thanks for your kind comment. Animals and all other living entities are conscious and are aware of their existence and the environment in which they exist and exploit energy from nature. The physically manifested universe with Cosmic Order, Cosmic Balance, and Cosmic Harmony is the evidence that Science must accept. There is no evidence to prove that Homo sapiens sapiens has evolved from apes or other animals. There is no evolutionary connection between modern humans and Cro-Magnon Man and Neanderthal Man. If an animal is bipedal, it cannot be viewed as an ancestral species of humans.
I am glad this has discussion has finally clarified our stands:-
You do not agree that man has evolved from ape like animals in recent past. Say from a common ancestor of man and chimpanzee about 6 million years ago.
You have finally come around to accepting that there is no or there cannot be proof of God.
Lets say hypothetically Man has not evolved from ape like animals, then I would also derive some satisfaction in a acknowlegement from you that your view is a total deviation from all the school and college textbooks being used today.
Sir, either you have discovered an amazing fact which is totally contradictory to alsmost all scientists (discouting a few who are clinging to the creationinst theory)
I fully agree that modern humans identified as Homo sapiens sapiens have arrived in most recent times on this planet which has been in existence for a long time. The transition of ape or ape like ancestral animal into modern humans is not proven. Apes and monkeys are still living with us. I think for myself. I am only asking scientists not to draw inferences which are not supported by facts on the ground. They have not seen this transformation, or transition, or a descent of one species into a new species. We have a variety of species. My disagreement is limited to interpretation of evidence.
Imagine a chromosome as being a shoelace. The plastic bits at the end of the shoelace keep the material which makes up the shoelace from unravelling. Chromosomes have similar ‘plastic bits’ at each end called telomeres. They protect the ends of the chromosome from degradation. In fact, the scientists who discovered this were recently awarded the 2009 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine. Now imagine that a shoelace also has another plastic bit in the middle, and through this you can connect a pair of shoelaces together for storage. This is called a centromere on a chromosome, and it is where the chromosome pairs connect.
So all chromosomes have a centromere in the middle and two telomeres, one at each end.
However, when scientists looked at human chromosome 2, they found that it has not one but two centromeres. Not only that, but they also found remnants of two extra telomeres in between the two centromeres. This is indicative of a linear connection between two chromosomes and is exactly what would be expected if a fusion event had occurred. So at some stage in the evolution of humans, a fusion event occurred producing human chromosome 2 and leaving us with 23 pairs of chromosomes. This means that our ancestors had 24 pairs of chromosomes, just like the rest of the Great Apes
The apes still exist and have no fused chromosome. What is the stage of human evolution you would suggest? How many years ago? Where in the body this fusion takes place? What is the sex of the entity in which fusion took place? Are you suggesting that a male and a female had simultaneously experienced an exactly similar fusion event involving identical chromosomes and then had successfully mated and produced a viable mutant with this new fused chromosome? What kind of Dating Service they had used to pair them? How did this viable mutant find his/her partner for keeping this fused chromosome propagating in the general population?
Successful reproduction in individuals with different chromosome numbers is also known to occur in humans, as is seen with individuals with a Robertsonian translocation (a disorder where a full or partial chromosome fuses to another). More than 1 in 1000 people have Robertsonian translocations and can still reproduce successfully. Not all of their offspring will survive, but some will, which is all that matters. Its roughly a 1 in 4 survival chance. Now, the offspring with the same fusion (it will be passed on to 50% of the viable offspring) will have the same fertility as the parent, so will also be able to reproduce with a 1 in 4 chance. And so on…
I am glad to note that you are paying attention to translocations, additions and deletions. So, you understand an end to end vertical fusion is different from translocation. Wherein medical genetics, have you encountered fused chromosomes and addition and deletion of complete chromosomes?
The Rise of Human Chromosome 2: The Fertility Problem
Kindly explain in your words. I explore concepts/thoughts. What is the concept stated?
You said … Krupa, Mercy, Grace, and Compassion is a measurable Force if you would infer the data from studies of Gravitational Force and the probabilities of Orbital Collision.
The SI unit of force is the newton (symbol N), which is the force required to accelerate a one kilogram mass at a rate of one meter per second squared, or kg•m•s−2
If one has not personally understood that in languages words can be sometimes same but have entirely different meaning depending on context, one’s life would be incomplete.
Can you measure Krupa, Mercy, Grace, and Compassion in newtons which is a measure of force?
Thanks for the Newtonian Laws of Physics. I agree with your definition. What is the name of that Physical Force that has provided acceleration to celestial bodies? What is the name of that Physical Force that initiated the rotational spin of Earth? How are these two Physical Forces working together?
The Force of Mercy, Grace, and Compassion or Krupa when experienced by biological entities, the experience imparts a bodily experience of Sweetness. If I use or apply force against you, you would not respond according to Newtonian Laws. There may not be equal and opposite reaction. You may simply turn your face and show your other cheek. Lord’s Mercy is experienced by our material existence in the physical world. Its uplifting force makes me to move, change my direction of movement if needed. If you read the Story about Good Samaritan you may sense the Force of Compassion. Good Samaritan had come to a stop. The Force had stopped him. Good Samaritan lifted an injured person and took him to an inn. Force was used in the execution of all these actions. Compassion is delivered by the use of Force. You can experimentally calculate all the Force/Energy spent by reenacting this Story.
Basics: How can chromosome numbers change?
Category: Evolution • Genetics • Science
Posted on: April 21, 2008 10:43 AM, by PZ Myers
This is great! How could I not take time to answer?
Thanks. Please take time to answer. Does a perfect, end to end fusion of two individual chromosomes take place over a period of time involving different members of a given population in a sequential manner/small changes leading to a fully fused functional new chromosome? Does this “FUSION” event takes place in the germ line cells(eggs or sperms) during the life time of an individual/individuals who then mate and reproduce and sustain the existence of this Fusion event? What is the medical evidence to suggest this specific kind of end to end fusion? Robertson’s fusion events are very interesting and thanks for sharing the Science blog. How do you trust presumptive arguments without hard evidence? The change in the numbers of chromosomes that could happen in an egg or sperm cell should be evidenced from studying its clinical manifestations or accidental discoveries(neutral changes) in the population which has experienced that change. Under experimental conditions, using cytology studies, we need to demonstrate the mechanisms, and environmental factors that could initiate such a change. I am skeptical about cytology studies where the experimental model organism is subjected to an environmental stimulus that the organism does not experience during its natural state of existence/life cycle. An experiment could make use of an environmental stimulus like U-V Rays only to an extent that this particular kind of external stimulus operates in the natural environment in which the Model Organism exists. Kindly give reference of such Evolutionary Biology studies to demonstrate the changes in chromosomal numbers and the causes for such events.
Wow, Dr Rudra, an amazing journey. I was just browsing through google images looking for the MOD Oman Club, when I got a link to the letter by Col Banks. I am serving as the HOD of Orthopaedics at the Armed Forces Hospital, Oman in the rank of Lt Col and after 22 years in Oman have acquired Omani nationality. I will go through your blog at leisure and get in touch with you. Are you still in Michigan? I am also closely involved with “Spirituality in medicine” and Human Values in education in Oman.
Dear Dr Ramachandran : I am indeed very pleased to hear from you. I had worked in the Force Base Hospital, MAM and have seen the new Armed Forces Hospital. At that time, we had no Orthopaedics Department. I am really delighted to know that you have obtained Omani nationality after 22 years in Oman. The Immigration policy of Oman may have changed. In the past, other Indian nationals were not getting the benefit of Omani citizenship. Please feel free to post your thoughts and leave a comment when you visit my blog posts. My post dated June 01, 2010 titled ‘Pain and Compassion – Philosophy of Medicine may interest you. My posts about Battlefield Medicine, Psychology of warfare, the age of stress, wound healing and others may also interest you.
Leave a comment